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    It's A Feminist Thing... Try To Understand

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    « That's What Friends Are For | Main | Speaking Of Incorrect »

    June 30, 2009

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    hmmm...so many jumping off points! :)

    I just don't think hookers, mistresses and "girlfriends on the side" are bad people... that's my liberalism. And I'm also prepared to defend it... and live with it.

    Not bad people, but, as in the sentences above, not people those in public office should interact with?

    I think your take on the 90's PC/Anti-PC thing doesn't give enough credit to the Right for using PC to market themselves as "champions for the normal," in which case "normal" = straight, white, male.

    and that her failures stem, in part, from the woman that she is - not the "person" - I mean woman, specifically.

    How so?

    First, the point of this post was to point out how "PC" notions can be used to stifle contrarian opinions. So the particular, contrary opinions aren't really the point here...

    I think your take on the 90's PC/Anti-PC thing doesn't give enough credit to the Right for using PC to market themselves as "champions for the normal," in which case "normal" = straight, white, male.

    Aside from not being entirely sure where you're going with this, I think at the time conservatives felt that "PC" was being used to limit debate, and to make them look bad. I think the "marketing ploy" of "straight, white = normal" was around before that and will be long after. The reason that's a loser for the right is that white people are becoming another minority in this country, in terms of population numbers, and it's perpetuated a problem for them attracting other minorities of color. In essence they marginalized themselves even as they assumed that they could sell "politically incorrect" as some sort of brave step.

    I just don't think hookers, mistresses and "girlfriends on the side" are bad people...
    Not bad people, but, as in the sentences above, not people those in public office should interact with?

    Hey, sleep with whom you like; I just don't think the guy who has affairs, patronizes hookers etc is a hero, or somehow beyond judgment. A lot of this "Sanford has to go, not because of an affair, but because of his actions as governor..." is nice... but I'd say he should go because running off to have an affair in Argentina is, in itself, indicative; there's too much laboring to parse what parts are somehow appropriately bad versus parts that "we can't judge." Heck, I say... let's take the whole package. I'm not saying who should "interact" with whom - I am saying that, once you have interacted... and people find out about it... don't be surprised that the public has a problem with it - and by "it" I mean the interaction, not some side issue.

    and that her failures stem, in part, from the woman that she is - not the "person" - I mean woman, specifically.

    How so?

    I think Purdum points out what a number of others who've looked into Palin do - that her success hinges on the thing that also fails her, that she's an attractive woman with audience appeal who doesn't seem to know how to be a good manager or effective executive. If she were a man, both her pluses and her minuses, I think, would be entirely different elements - really beautiful men can find the looks a hindrance, not a help (John Edwards, Mitt Romney); and ineffective male executives don't necessarily get the kind of blowback Palin has. My point being... there's a gendered element to how Palin operates, succeeds and fails that can't be ignored. I think Purtdum's piece has tremendous problems, along the lines of what Melissa points out over at Shakes; but as I said to her, I think that tied up in Purdum's problems is a complicated question of how men can criticize women as bad executives, one that really needs more sorting out... and I think Palin benefits from the discomfort that comes up, because critiquing her, and being especially critical, coming from a man, can easily be termed "sexist." Even if the critique, essentially, is accurate.

    Hey, sleep with whom you like;

    ...unless of course you plan on running for office or continue to hold one.

    As long as American politics require its straight elected men to be married and monogamous, we will have these scandals. I don't think these men are heroes either (??), and wasn't speaking of Sanford specifically, but this insistence on picket-fence politicians has to go.

    don't be surprised that the public has a problem with it

    I think you're conflating "the public" with you. Some poll came out yesterday showing that 60% or so of Americans think Sanford no worse for his affair than other politicians. The public forgives more easily than media narratives do.

    and I think Palin benefits from the discomfort that comes up, because critiquing her, and being especially critical, coming from a man, can easily be termed "sexist."

    I guess it depends on what you mean by "benefit." Did Hillary Clinton benefit thusly from sexism as well?

    Hey, sleep with whom you like;

    ...unless of course you plan on running for office or continue to hold one.

    Like I said... this isn't really an argument that I'd like to drag out; we've long disagreed on part of this, and we likely will forever. :) And the negative assessments of Sanford - including nearly every poll I've seen where majorities think he should leave office - tend to be with me, not you; if you'd like to seriously suggest that a majority of the country sees him cheating on a wife and leaving his four sons for father's day to see his mistress as excusable... well, check around, but I'm guessing I have the more common view on that one. And no, Sanford is the issue; what his case, and others say, about a randy single gentleman (or more pointedly, a sexually active young woman) holding office is interesting... but kind of tangential. I'm more specifically concerned with these "let's not judge" his affair/hookers/etc... behaviors that don't take "prudishness" to find unacceptable.

    And just to - oh well - drag this out, I'd suggest that you can't solve the "prudish" issue of accepting people who sleep around without being married until you draw some lines about married people who do the same; if left to say it's all okay... you'll get the people who say it's all not. You want nuance... then be nuanced enough to say something like "that bum with the wife and four kids is no hero for carrying on an affair."

    As for Palin, I'd say that being unable to call attention to Palin's woman-specific issues as a negative is the same as the way people talk about "Hillary" as if she's not a woman; the more we see Clinton as a woman, and therefore, especially strong and admirable, as a woman, is partly my point. In both cases we're partly using a(well-meaning) feminist PC as a way to limit language and ideas... when really, there are ideas being left out that really should be included.

    As long as we insist on one type of family in representational government (those would-be bums with the 4 kids), it's going to be a long haul to get other kinds of families i.e. gay ones, recognized at all by the government these heads of traditional families run.

    Yes, where are the single randy politicians?

    p.s. for a better take on what I'm getting at, please check out this week's Savage Love. He more eloquently talks about this idealizing of monogamy and its ill effects.

    absurd side note: Sandford was one of those calling for Bill Clinton to resign over Lewinsky.

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